The SLIS Interview with Mystery Science Theater 3000’s Joel Hodgson, where we discuss the legacy of his classic show as well as his current projects.
A few weeks ago I did my list of the Top 10 Best Mystery Science Theater Episodes.
It got such a good response, that I thought it would be fun to interview series creator, comedian Joel Hodgson. Hodgson was the first host of the series, and remains the most beloved.
Hodgson was gracious with his time, and indulged all my questions. And he’s been keeping busy; doing live movie riffing with his Cinematic Titanic and Riffing Myself performances, as well as teaching a class on the subject. Below is an excerpt of our conversation
*FYI, for brevity’s sake Mystery Science Theater 3000 will be referred to by its official abbreviation; MST3K.
SLIS: So what inspired your Riffing Myself Shows? What was your impetus to do that?
Hodgson: Well it was interesting, I got a snap scanner and started going through vintage photos, scanning them and sorting. I started to kind of put together a narrative. I realized I had enough photos of my career that I could put together a narrative and explain the MST3K origin story, as it pertains to my life.
You know I actually thought up MST3K when I was in high school…so it starts when I’m 6 years old and I think God is making the movies. And then I it goes though to the day we got the deal to do MST3K for the Comedy Channel.
SLIS: So it’s the whole process of how you got it all started?
Hodgson: Yeah it’s just an accumulation of a bunch of ideas and things I’ve learned and observed and all the references that kind of lead me to the idea…So its really for people who want to know more and want to go deeper y’know?
SLIS: And you’re still doing the Cinematic Titanic shows as well?
Hodgson: Yeah we’re doing Cinematic Titanic and our last show is New Year’s Eve of this year at the Keswick Theater in Philadelphia (click here to buy tickets).
SLIS: I got to see the Cinematic Titanic show at the Paramount Theater in Austin a few years back. That was a lot of fun seeing you guys in a live context.
Hodgson: Oh yeah. That was a really cool theater.
SLIS: You guys did the Dynamite Brothers movie. It was hilarious.
Hodgson: Oh yeah! Exactly.
SLIS: So when you’re doing live shows, what do you like about doing that vs. taped in the studio when you were doing MST3K. What do you enjoy about that aspect?
Hodgson: I think the world has changed so much, and there’s just so much recorded media, that the idea of riffing live is really the state of the art of doing it. The idea of composing a show to be recorded…its kind of the difference between a studio album and a live album…and the premise is to try to to land jokes and having an audience there to react to it. So that really makes it different.
So to me from the time we started Cinematic Titanic 6 years ago it’s just gone hand in hand, the studio shows and the live shows started at the exact same time. So I think the studio shows when we did them, was kind of our rear view mirror to MST3K since we always did it that way, but in the same week we did our first live show in San Francisco, so we’ve really been doing live shows the entire time we’ve been doing Cinematic Titanic.
SLIS: With the Internet, Netflix and DVDs, it feels to me like the show is still so present, even though its been off the air for many years. There’s still such a fondness for it. What do you think has created that enduring appeal?
Hodgson: Well I think technically what I think is happening,…MST3K is almost, I don’t know if I can put this into words its going to sound very awkward…most things derive from the world around them; but with MST3K and movie riffing in general, the thing you’re talking about… you’re all observing it at the exact same time, so it carries its context with it.
Most shows that do topical humor…their context is the world around you, so I think MST3K, instead of referring to the world around it, its more about the world you’re sharing in the movie…so it travels with its own reference points…It’s unique that way and I don’t think I designed that into it, I just think that as the years go by and talking to people and thinking about it, I think that might be why?
So it doesn’t really age, because the movies are locked into a period and we know that we know that we did MST3K after the movie…so it’s not locked in a time, its not really locked in a moment…that’s kinda my explanation why it still works.
SLIS: And when you think about it, you have shows like The Soup, Tosh.0, and films like Best Worst Movie, and Internet culture including blogs like mine, all seem so indebted to your style. How do you feel about how influential you’ve been and how that’s been so absorbed in pop culture?
Hodgson: Well I love it. I love that people identity that we anticipated what was gonna happen…and it’s just really great. I’m always really happy when people can see that, and it was really just a function of the idea…wouldn’t it be great to do a show where these characters talk about the movie, and are kind of your companions with the movie. And when we did it, it was really hard to do that, and now it’s just so easy. The idea that you can look at something on YouTube and comment on it…it really took so much resources and planning to get that one little thing to happen. But once it did it was worth it and now its very easy to do that…and I think its great, and I love that we were in the right place at the right time and kind of anticipated it you know?
SLIS: Given the longevity of MST3K, I’m sure you get asked this all the time, but have you ever given any thought to bringing back the show and doing it on a different cable network or even as a Netflix original streaming show?
Hodgson: Yeah, it would be really cool to do it again. I think if I got in the position to do it, I’d want to do it with a new cast y’know and give someone else a shot at it? Put in people who were like our age when we started, because I was like 28 when we started, so I’d probably do something like that. But I’m not really the mark holder of, so it’s not really my call.
SLIS: So that would be the producer you’re talking about? Jim Mallon?
Hodgson: Yes, Jim Mallon controls the mark at this point.
SLIS: When you went to the Comedy Channel (which became Comedy Central), basic cable was more restricted; you couldn’t be as provocative or racy as you can now, so you were very clever in how you approached stuff like that. The culture has gotten so much more coarse and uninhibited. If you were to do it again today, would you keep that lighter touch or would you be more provocative?
Hodgson: Well I think my take on it is that we didn’t really have anybody give us notes from the network, but if they had I think they would have told us to be more racy. Because that’s typical of comedy…to always make it edgier…and I just feel personally it’s not really in my wheelhouse. And it’s not sustainable I feel. And that’s just me…the other thing is that we’re companions with people watching the movie and people don’t want to hang out with assholes ( both laugh) y’know? If you’re a dick and you’re crass and go to the obvious jokes and don’t really temper it or put style into it, I just don’t think people will like it. Like; ” I don’t want to spend time with this person”…or you’ll attract like an audience that really loves that and then you have a whole other problem…because your audience is comprised of assholes (both laugh) and then you have a whole bigger problem.
So that’s kinda my take on it…I don’t think the world needs someone doing a dirty version of MST3K…and now I’m also 53 man so c’mon I’m an old guy. I’m not gonna get all crazy.
(both laugh)
SLIS: And do you still keep in contact with Mike Nelson and Kevin Murphy? I know they do Rifftrax, but that’s not affiliated with what you do. Is there ever any cross-pollination between you, or do you not really interact with each other anymore?
Hodgson: Well y’know it’s really like different schools. It’s like the guys in Cinematic Titanic and Mary Jo. There is some crossover there, because she stayed with the show the entire run from the time she started…and the rest of us left and migrated to Los Angeles and stayed friends there…and Kevin, Bill and Mike stayed on. And y’know it’s not easy to roll over the cast. I mean I’m really happy that it kept running. And those guys did a good job with it, but it couldn’t have been easy. You know even when Kevin replaced Josh Weinstein there were big letter writing campaigns that people didn’t like him.
And he obviously did a really good job with the character and brought some new stuff to it. He took what Josh had done and added his own stuff and did a really good job with it…so they really bonded they’re really friends, so it’s just kind of that natural thing. But I think they’re really talented.
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SLIS: One of my favorite shows, and I think it is for many fans, has got to be Mitchell. It’s like the crown jewel of the series. I notice it’s out of print on DVD. Was there an issue with the distributor or is Joe Don Baker still angry about it (laughing) ?
Hodgson: I don’t know anything about it…You never know how its going to go with the film rights…we didn’t clear all the film rights initially so the lawyers at Shout! Factory have to go back in and renegotiate those movies.
SLIS: Really?
Hodgson: They’ve done a really good job and cleared 100 of them. You know we made almost 200 shows and they’ve cleared half…And I’m not very interested in them releasing the KTMA episodes, because that was really us just figuring it out. We weren’t even writing those shows, so I don’t really want those released; I don’t even care. And they’re on the Internet anyways so if people really interested in looking at it scholastically…its good to see us figuring it out. But I don’t think they’re particularly good shows, its just us figuring out the show.
SLIS: With Mitchell you took a film that’s perhaps one of the most boring movies ever, and you made it into something so amazing.
Hodgson: Aww, thanks.
SLIS: My wife bought a Mitchell poster for my birthday a few years ago (laughing).
Hodgson: Oh yeah! Its funny…people bring those to our shows….I think Mitchell demonstrated that you can movie riff with any movie and it works. When we started I kind of presumed we’d be doing science fiction movies, and spectacular movies and fantasy films. And just the idea of a Made-for-TV cop movie worked really well. I think that’s true, and that wasn’t designed by the way, we didn’t say, “Oh this my last show and lets lay this movie in here.” It was just the next one to do. So it just all worked out.
SLIS: Recently I saw Comedians In Cars Getting Coffee with you and Jerry Seinfeld. I really enjoyed it (click here to watch). I was wondering how long have you been such close friends and have you ever collaborated on anything together?
Hodgson: Yeah we wrote his first HBO special together. That was one of our first things. That was way before MST3K. And it’s really funny because I quit doing standup…I had known Jerry a little bit from doing standup in LA. He came out to Minneapolis…we hung out and he invited me to help him write his HBO special and we started spending time together and writing.
He was a big influence on me; he was like a mentor to me. And I really admire his work, but he was also not really a cynical person, and he really loved doing what he did and he was happy. And I thought that was really great and he kind of inspired me to want to get back into it. I started writing an idea for a movie for him, a sci-fi movie, and I pitched it to him and he was very graceful, but he just said something like “Listen I’m going to change the world in about 5 yrs by creating Seinfeld I can’t do this” Now he didn’t really say that.
(Both laugh)
But he was very graceful saying, “I can’t do that show, but I think YOU should do that show”. And it kind of got me thinking. I was definitely trying to transpose him onto my idea. He’s not a science fiction guy in the least….And within a year I’d figured out MST3K and figured out I wanted to do it.
SLIS: I read the New York Times article on your Movie Riffing class. How did that come about? You were asked to speak at a college but then came up with this idea of a class?
Hodgson: Yeah, it was really interesting. A guy approached me who was a professor at this college and wanted me to come speak. And it was a little weird to me because its kind of presumptuous I didn’t really know what college kids would think about MST3K. For some reason it rubbed me the wrong way. So I said why don’t I do this; why don’t I do a seminar, why don’t I do a class and then we’ll just see who’s interested. It could be 5 people, it could be 20 people I had no idea. The first day it was like crazy coz it was packed. There was like 50 kids there; there wasn’t any more room in the room. They all knew who I was and they all loved MST3K so it was really interesting that way.
So I decided I wanted to see what it was like taking a student and going from like 0-60 and go “That’s how you riff on movies…that’s how it works. That’s the technique of it” and see if it could be taught, and see if there was an easy elegant way to kind of show people how to do it and it went beautifully. I was really impressed and some of the people that were in my class I’ve used already to help write stuff since they did such a good job. It was a really good experience. It was just about a year ago. And they did so well that I did a live show with them at the colonial theater. So I put together my favorite riff groups and there were a total of 5 them. And we did it a live show at the Colonial Theater in Phoenixville PA.
SLIS: So would that be something you’d be interested in doing again at other colleges around the country?
Hodgson: Yeah, I also did a four-hour seminar in Seattle through a film group in Seattle. And it was really fun. It worked. I basically did what I took like 8 weeks to do with the college students and did it in 4 hours. And it worked really good. Y’know it’s interesting… I’m still trying to figure it out. But its great and I think more than anything, the thing that I got out of it, is that I met some really funny people that I remember and stay in touch with and can bring them in on things that I need help with, and it’s just great to know those people.
SLIS: I saw on your website that you’re working with an aerospace company called Cannae. How are you involved with them?
Hodgson: I ‘m their creative lead for media; basically I created their media department… So I did the look of the website, the names of the products, it’s the product tree, it’s the videos that accompany the products. I work with people who produce and make either computer graphics, motion graphics or live action. And so I work with that and solve problems and visually realize and teach people about what Cannae is doing.
SLIS: So anything else new down the pipe that you’d like to discuss?
Hodgson: Not really. I do Cinematic Titanic, I do Riffing Myself, which really I just got on my feet this year so I’m still playing with that. And then the stuff with Cannae and that’s really about it.
SLIS: Well that’s enough to keep you busy. Well please keep me posted on when you’re coming back to Austin with Riffing Myself. I was so disappointed last time that as soon I found out about it was already sold out. And I’m sure the Alamo Drafthouse shares your sensibilities. They’re such a great venue to work with.
Hodgson: Yeah it’s pretty cool, they’re really amazing. As soon as I’ll book it I’ll put it on my website.
Click here for my review of the recent Austin Drafthouse Riffing Myself Show.
And something else you may want to mention; I’m in the new season of Arrested Development (available on Netflix streaming, Click Here for a free trial), They’re doing an homage to MST3K, in the new one with Tobias. They put in the MST3K silhouettes and Trace and I recorded a riff for it. So we’re actually in there riffing on the show(episodes 5 and 9).
SLIS: Cool! I’ll have to check it out this evening.Well thanks so much for your time Joel. I really appreciate it and its been a pleasure talking to you.
Hodgson: Thank you!
Here are some Amazon links to some great MST3K episodes featuring Joel including the out of print Mitchell, which you find used through some sellers.
